Inge Rohde (CBR): That has increased in recent years and, of course, it’s connected with the CBR’s strategy and how we are increasingly positioning ourselves as an authentic public service provider. Your brand is an important factor in making that move. 

Leonie van der Mark (AVROTROS): This has also increased a lot in recent years. And especially in the last year, because we celebrated our 100th anniversary and we used that as an opportunity to gather more recognition for the AVROTROS brand. With 13 public broadcasters and the rise of multiple streaming services, it is important to show who you are and why you are there.

Leonie: Well, first of all, we stand for a well-informed, safe and just society. That is our core responsibility, and we work on it every day.  

But what distinguishes us from other broadcasters in the public system is that AVROTROS has been making culture accessible for years. And that’s how we connect with so many people again and again. We think it's important to bring culture (in the broadest sense of the word: from classical music to Dutch music and from theatre to painting) to the people. We do this with television programmes such as Best Singers, Tussen Kunst en Kitsch, Maestro, Krabbé Zoekt ..., the Eurovision Song Contest and also a lot of radio programmes every day. 

We believe that culture is the glue that holds society together. The Music Festival on the Square is also a good example of this: a lot of people getting together, united by a love of music, and having a lot of fun. Until a few years ago, we communicated mainly through our programming. There is already so much free publicity and media attention. But today, it's not enough to communicate what we're broadcasting and when, it's all about the why.  

Inge: We do indeed conduct research into how we are perceived, in customer panels and through reputation research. This revealed that the extent of the CBR's responsibility for road safety was not widely understood. A lot of people know the CBR from the driving test, of course, we provide 1.7 million assessments every year. But we also play an important role for professional drivers, for example.  

We carry out 800,000 fit to drive assessments every year. And everyone who has their driving licence suspended by the police because of alcohol or drug use, or after reckless driving incidents, are sent to the CBR for a mandatory Road Safety course. It's in our genes. As a government organisation, we are naturally modest about this. But if we want to perform our public responsibilities properly, it is important that our role is better known. 

Of course, citizens, our customers, cannot use our competitor, because there is none. This means that we have to set the bar as high as possible for ourselves, in order to serve our customers well.    

What our customers tell us is that they expect us to play more of a guiding role. That we, as an independent government organisation, should offer more information about how the process of getting a driver's license. And also about what to do when people are facing health conditions. What should you do then? Or children who are worried about a parent with dementia who is still driving around in traffic. And in order to be able to fulfil that role, we are working actively to adapt our brand accordingly. The purpose of this is, of course, a very different one than in the commercial sector. For us, it's about our social contribution and our brand is always in service of that. 

Leonie: Yes, we do research quite regularly. To start with, we conduct an extensive survey every two years. With all our podcasts, radio and TV programmes, we reach an average of 70% of the Dutch population every week. It’s very interesting to see how each channel changes and how it reinforces and/or overlaps each other.  

We also conduct an annual image survey to assess how the Netherlands perceives AVROTROS and which image characteristics are top of the list. Finally, we also do an attribution survey to check whether our audiences actually connect these programmes to the AVROTROS brand. We then use all these insights from those studies to make adjustments.  

Leonie: I'm quite jealous of the old pay-off of the TROS: "The biggest family in the Netherlands". I still think that's such a powerful pay-off. Connecting society is very strong in that, and it feels very friendly and welcoming in its nature: it didn't exclude anyone. But I also like the old slogan of the Tax and Customs Administration: "We can't make it more fun, but we can make it easier". Based on an honest insight. Dare to do it! 

Inge: I don't want to be immodest, but I'm very happy with our own pay-off "Moving forward safely together" that has been around for a year or two, because it really expresses the essence. In other examples, I also end up with the tax authorities with "We can't make it more fun, but we can make it easier". As far as I'm concerned, that could apply to the entire government. 

Leonie: I also have to think of NS - maybe because I worked for that myself for years at N=5, but I think the pay-off 'Where are you going today?' is very clever. Activating and also a strong translation of the brand idea "taste freedom". In addition, I find it a friendly, inviting ending. 

Inge: On a campaign level, I'm not necessarily jealous, to be honest, I hardly watch any advertisements. But I have a public bias and when I see how public organisations such as KPN and PostNL have transformed themselves and are now very strong brands, I think they are great examples. 

Leonie: I also think Zeeman is a great example of using very striking campaigns to create a consistent brand story. With wonderful, recognisable colloquialisms. It seems so simple, but it's not that simple at all. 

And when I ask such a question, I always go back to the retail brands. I started at an advertising agency where I worked for C1000, among others. I find continuously building a brand with an ever-changing, smart proposition in a world with a lot of competition not only instructive, but also a pleasant environment to be in.  

By the way, I also think HEMA is particularly strong with its hooks that they often use to respond to current events. There's still an advertising girl in me who can enjoy that. I'm already looking forward to seeing all of the supermarkets Christmas campaigns in December. 

Leonie: AVROTROS is actually still a fairly young brand. AVRO and TROS had their own assets, but we are still very much building on the new merged brand.  

We have been using the new logo for about 3 years now with a strong sound logo that we notice is recognised by more and more people. But AVROTROS still has a lot of work to do in terms of spontaneous recognisability. Of course, our advantage is that in owned media we can be seen and heard for hours every day. There, our awareness is very high at 97%. 

Inge: Of course, we have strong associations with the driver's license. When people think of us, they think of the well-known pink piece of paper or nowadays the pink card. Of course, we are part of the process, but it is actually issued by the RDW. As a result, our brand awareness is high. And a few years ago, we made a conscious decision to add a blue label similar to the Dutch government to our logo because we think it is important to emphasise that connection and radiate reliability.

Inge: Our most important driver is how we carry out our core tasks and make our contribution to road safety. What we're doing to keep people mobile. And finally, the quality of our people and services. That is the essence for us and that is what we focus on.  

About three-quarters of the public supports the performance of the CBR's public responsibilities. In 2021, we conducted a major reputation survey among the Dutch public, and it showed that we are on the right track. We are at a 7- in terms of reputation score. The most important thing we can do to strengthen our reputation is, of course, to have our service in order.  

Leonie: Our programmes and our presenters are actually the biggest drivers behind our reputation. We are so visible every day, you hear and see us almost daily with all our podcasts and radio and TV shows. The more people who rate AVROTROS positively, the stronger our reputation. We therefore work every day on a certain 'quality standard', which we must continuously meet.  

Communication obviously contributes to this, but a healthy corporate culture also contributes to a good reputation. Or how we listen to our members... Or engage with our followers on social media. Or dealing with fans of programmes. And how presenters behave. All of that affects our reputation.  

Inge: We haven't invested in large-scale campaigns. What we mainly invest in is that we translate our brand into everything we do. There is a lot of tension around our services: getting or keeping your driver's license. It is therefore extremely important for citizens that we are always very clear and empathetic, and that we also make it as easy as possible. Even when there are negative decisions.  

We specifically seek out customers, for example by using social media campaigns that also contribute to our reputation and brand. We are constantly working on our role and services.  

Leonie: In the last two years we have invested heavily in making the step from programme promotion to brand communication. This means that all communication advisors bring their programme promotion more in line with the brand message of AVROTROS. That one becomes proof of the other.  

Now that we are more concerned with our profiling, we also think differently: how do you market your programmes in a striking way? How do you link that to AVROTROS? This requires more creativity and conceptual thinking. That's why we started working with agencies, for example. 

And then you also have to stand out among all the other broadcasters: BNNVARA also communicates. KRO-NCRV too. And then you have even more broadcasters. If you want people to see and remember your message, you need a consistent, powerful message. Especially when you consider that there is also a lot of people in the Netherlands that are Netflix subscribers. 

Inge: Since 1 September, I have been the manager of the new Customer and Communication Expertise Centre, where we have hired new professionals such as online specialists and content marketers, but also a new brand strategist and customer experience marketers. Our communications team has expanded, and we have combined expertise in customer interaction and customer journey management so that we can connect all the elements that are important to our reputation much more powerfully. 

We are also much more active on social media and have hired new professionals for this. Not in very large numbers, but it is a definite shift that we are making together. In the next reputation survey, we will see the results of this, but we are already seeing a few things. For example, in the effect of social media campaigns that we do for young people and their parents. 

Leonie: In 2022, we received another four-year broadcasting licence, but it has been noted that we need to profile ourselves more sharply and therefore have to translate even more strongly what our significance is in the public broadcasting system. In our case, connecting society a little more through culture in a very accessible way. That's what we strive for every day. For everyone in the Netherlands. It is not for nothing that we are 'the broadcaster for everyone'. 

Inge: That's a big difference with us, that you have to demonstrate that you are distinctive. Of course, this does not apply at all to an organisation like ours. For us, the why is very important, but mainly because of the support for carrying out public tasks. We are a monopolist and that means a lot of obligations. 

Leonie: It's very mixed with us in terms of background. We work with the marketing department in a shared space. The expertise is nicely divided between research and data specialists, marketing professionals, communication consultants, content marketers, social media managers, etc.  

Furthermore, it is a nice mix of journalists, starters, people from the (public) broadcasting world, and people from the commercial world. From my own commercial background, I bring brand thinking and how we always keep our eyes on that dot on the horizon. 

Inge: You can see that people consciously choose us to dedicate themselves to the public good. It is often thought that working for a government organisation requires you to have experience in the government, but that is not true for the CBR. We have explicitly invited people with experience in the commercial world to take the step and with the new people we have brought in, we are a great mix.  

What I like is that everyone, from legal affairs to someone from IT, always has the citizen in mind. Our starting point as a public organisation is the perception of the people concerned. We listen to society. I think that's what makes working for us very special. 

Inge: I get a lot of inspiration from working with other public service providers. For example, we work with the tax authorities, UWV, DUO and see how they are working on their customer journey. We also develop training courses together. I also get inspiration from conversations with colleagues, sometimes from conferences but also from my personal network. 

Leonie: I like to go to practical conferences. Most recently, "successful press policy". You always hear something new or something that triggers you from peers.  

I have also been a member of the jury of the SAN for a year now. It keeps me up to date, and I learn a lot from my peers, and I’m always inspired by something. I also take that into account in my own work. And I love to join inspiration sessions hosted by advertising agencies. Our own agency INDIE recently organised one especially for AVROTROS, with all kinds of beautiful, special cases from Cannes. It was very cool.  

And our news editors at EenVandaag recently organised an inspiration session about AI. I also think it's very important to share that with my team, so if something is organised somewhere, I like to take them with me.  

And last but certainly not least: our association council, our members, and all our viewers and listeners. They often attend our recordings, meetings and the events we host. We always get feedback from them and a lot of beautiful, new insights.  

Read more interviews in the Public Brands series at: https://www.iodigital.com/nl/insights/dossiers/public-brands